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Artillerie durant la bataille des Ardennes (1944)

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J'espere que je poste au bon endroit, toutes mes excuses si ce n'est pas le cas.

Je suis à la recherche d'info sur les artilleries en presences dans les deux camps durant cette bataille.

En particulier:

1)  une estimation de la quantité et de la nature de l'artillerie pour chaque camp.

2) une estimation du rapport en faveur d'un camp ( genre rapport de 3/1 en faveur de l'Allié).

3) Les types et calibres les plus presents dans chaque camp et si possible leur rapport ( genre au hasard allemand 35% roquettes 150, 10% d'arty de 210 etc...) ou au pire leur nombre.

4) La date ou les dates ou l'arty a joué un role vraiment important.

Et, comme je demande de l'aide, la moindre des choses c'est de vous expliquer pourquoi Wink

Cela va servir à un copain qui administre en ce moment une campagne sur Combat Mission AK simulant la dite bataille des ardennes.

Il a besoin de ces infos pour creer une regle gerant l'arty dans cette campagne.

Merci d'avance les gens  Cool

Fen.

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Coté teuton :
pour une division (dotation normale en en 44)

75LIG18 : 4 par bataillon soit 24 par division d'infanterie et 16 par panzer
150SIG33 : 4 par régiment soit 12 par DI et 8 par panzer (remplacés par des Gw38 dans les panzerss et GD)
mortiers de 120mm : 24 par DI et 16 par panzer
mortiers de 81mm : 36 par DI et 24 par panzer
Canons de 77mm : 18 par division
Obusiers de 105mm : 24 par division
obusiers de 150mm : 12 par division
Flak 20mm : 12 pièces (peuvent être remplacées par des vierling ou des 37 voir mobelwagen et ostwind)
Pak40 : 6 par division
Hetzer ou assimilés : 12 par division

Les 105 et 150 peuvent être remplacés par wespe et hummel (panzer et pzgrenadier).

Les nebelwerfer sont max 18 par division en général (ss) mais sont une dotation spéciale


Les 105 et 150 peuvent être doublés et une 6 170mm peuvent être ajoutés (dotation spéciale). Les divisions d'infanterie peuvent avoir jusqu'à 36 170 en rab.

voilà un premier jet pour ordre d'idée.

Pour les US il faut que je creuse Whistling Mmm non pas mon jardin Wacko

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Merci copain thumbs up cheers

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Premier jet Us :

environ 48 obusiers de 105 par division 4 pièces par batterie) tous automoteurs dans Arm div. et 6 pièces par batterie ce qui fait 48 automoteurs.
environ 72 canons AT de 57mm (remplacés probablement par des 76mm pour au moins 18 d'entre eux) 4 pièces par batterie.
environ 54 mortiers de 81mm soit 6 par section

A ceux-ci s'ajoutent des batteries de 155 obusiers et les 155 "long tom" et des 4.5" (4 pièces par batterie).
En artillerie anti-aérienne on trouve des 37mm, 40mm (bofors) et des 90mm.
Les troupes du génie peuvent être dotées de mortier de 105mm (chemical). Théoriquement ces mortiers servait à tirer des fumigènes, des gaz, des éclairants, mais j'ai trouvé des témoignages indiquant qu'ils tiraient aussi des grenade HE comme les autres. scratch ^^

Globalement c'est plus standardisé et moins exotique

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Encore merci thumbs up

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Dans les zones forestières, les soldats alliés ont surtout souffert des tirs de mortier, précis et serrés.

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Il faut aller au delà des dotations divisionnaires: dans les ardennes, le gros de l'artillerie allemande est concentrée au sein de 8 Volksartillerie Corps et de 8 Nebelwerfer Brigade indépendante; chaque unité à entre 50 et 100 tubes, mais de très faibles moyens de locomotion. La préparation d'artillerie sera intense le 16 décembre (mais peu précise faute de reconnaissance adéquate), mais les tubes ne suivront pas l'avance des panzers (ce qui explique la capacité de resistance US sur St Vith et Bastogne), arrivant sur le front avancé qu'aux environs de Noel (ce qui explique en partie la lenteur de la contre attaque US, 1 mois pour résorber le saillant alors que les allemands sont épuisés et que des unités sont parties pour le front de l'est).

De mémoire:
6°SSPzA: 402 VAK, 388 VAK et 405 VAK, 4, 17 et 19 NBW Bdes
5° PzA: 766 VAK, 403 VAK, 7 et 15 NBW Bdes
7° A: 406 VAK, 408 VAK, 8 et 18 NBW Bdes
Reserve: 410 VAK et 20 NBW Bde (serviront finalement pour Nordwind en alsace)

De même, l'US Army a de nombreuses brigades d'artillerie lourde (203) ou moyenne (105-155) non endivisionnées.

De l'aveu des deux camps, l'arme la plus mortelle dans les ardennes fut bien l'Artillerie.



Dernière édition par nancy 1477 le Jeu 24 Juin 2010 - 12:36, édité 2 fois

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Ordre de bataille us: chaque corps à de 3 à 4 Groups (=brigades) d'Artillerie Indépendante:

U.S. First Army
LTG Courtney H. Hodges

5th Belgian Fusilier Battalion
143rd and 413th AA Gun Battalions
526th Armored Infantry Battalion
99th Infantry Battalion (Norwegian-Americans)

V Corps
MG Leonard T. Gerow


102nd Cavalry Group, Mechanized
38th and 102nd Cavalry Recon Squadrons attached
613th TD Battalion
186th, 196th, 200th, and 955th FA Battalions
254th Engineer Combat Battalion
187th FA Group (751st and 997th FA Battalions)
190th FA Group (62nd, 190th, 272nd, and 268th FA Battalions)
406th FA Group (76th, 941st, 953rd, and 987th FA Battalions)
1111th Engineer Combat Group (51st, 202nd, 291st, and 296th Engineer Combat Battalions)
1121st Engineer Combat Group (146th, 254th Engineer Combat Battalions)
1195th Engineer Combat Group
134th, 387th, 445th, 460th, 461st, 531st, 602nd, 639th, and 863rd AAA AW Battalions
1st Infantry Division "Big Red One"
BG Clift Andrus
16th, 18th and 26th Infantry Regiments
5th, 7th, 32nd, and 33rd FA Battalions
1st Engineer Combat Battalion
745th Tank Battalion
634th and 703rd TD Battalions
103rd AAA AW Battalion
2nd Infantry Division "Indianhead"
MG Walter M. Robertson
9th, 23rd, and 38th Infantry Regiments
12th, 15th, 37th, and 38th FA Battalions
2nd Engineer Combat Battalion
741st Tank Battalion
612th and 644th TD Battalions
462nd AAA AW Battalion
9th Infantry Division "Octofoil"
MG Louis A. Craig
39th, 47th, and 60th Infantry Regiments
26th, 34th, 60th, and 84th FA Battalions
15th Engineer Combat Battalion
38th Cavalry Recon Squadron
746th Tank Battalion
376th and 413th AAA AW Battalions
78th Infantry Division "Lightning"
MG Edwin P. Parker, Jr.
309th, 310th, and 311th Infantry Regiments
307th, 308th, 309th, and 903rd FA Battalions
303rd Engineer Combat Battalion
709th Tank Battalion
628th and 893rd TD Battalions
552nd AAA AW Battalion
CCR, 5th Armored Division (attached)
2nd Ranger Battalion (attached)
99th Infantry Division "Checkerboard"
MG Walter E. Lauer
393rd, 394th, and 395th Infantry Regiments
370th, 371st, 372nd, and 924th FA Battalions
324th Engineer Combat Battalion
801st TD Battalion
535th AAA AW Battalion

VII Corps
MG Joseph Lawton Collins


4th Cavalry Group, Mechanized
29th Infantry Regiment
Two French Light Infantry Battalions
509th Parachute Infantry Battalion
298th Engineer Combat Battalion
740th Tank Battalion
18th FA Group (188th, 666th, and 981st FA Battalions)
142nd FA Group (195th and 266th FA Battalions)
188th FA Group (172nd, 951st, and 980th FA Battalions)
342nd, 366th, 392nd, 1308th, and 1313th Engineer General Service Regiments
18th, 83rd, 87th, 183rd, 193rd, 957th, and 991st FA Battalions
2nd Armored Division "Hell on Wheels"
MG Ernest N. Harmon
41st Armored Infantry Regiment
66th and 67th Armored Regiments
14th, 78th, and 92nd Armored FA Battalions
17th Armored Engineer Battalion
82nd Recon Battalion
702nd TD Battalion
195th AAA AW Battalion
elements of 738th Tank Battalion (special - mine clearing) attached
3rd Armored Division "Spearhead"
MG Maurice Rose
36th Armored Infantry Regiment
32nd and 33rd Armored Regiments
54th, 67th, and 391st Armored FA Battalions
23rd Armored Engineer Battalion
83rd Recon Squadron
643rd and 703rd TD Battalion
486th AAA AW Battalion
83rd Infantry Division "Thunderbolt"/"Ohio"
MG Robert C. Macon
329th, 330th, and 331st Infantry Regiments
322nd, 323rd, 324th, and 908th FA Battalions
308th Engineer Combat Battalion
453rd AAA AW Battalion
774th Tank Battalion
772nd TD Battalion
84th Infantry Division "Railsplitters"
BG Alexander R. Bolling
333rd, 334th, and 335th Infantry Regiments
325th, 326th, 327th, and 909th FA Battalions
309th Engineer Combat Battalion
701st Tank Battalion, replaced by 771st Tank Battalion on 20 December
638th TD Battalion
557th AAA AW Battalion

XVIII Airborne Corps
MG Matthew B. Ridgway


14th Cavalry Group, Mechanized
254th, 275th, 400th, and 460th FA Battalions
79th FA Group (153rd, 551st, and 552nd FA Battalions)
179th FA Group (259th and 965th FA Battalions)
211th FA Group (240th and 264th FA Battalions)
401st FA Group (187th and 809th FA Battalions)
7th Armored Division "Lucky Seventh"
BG Robert W. Hasbrouck
CCA, CCB, and CCR
23rd, 38th, and 48th Armored Infantry Battalions
17th, 31st, and 40th Tank Battalions
434th, 440th, and 489th Armored FA Battalions
33rd Armored Engineer Battalion
87th Recon Squadron
814th TD Battalion
203rd AAA AW Battalion
820th TD Battalion attached 25–30 December
30th Infantry Division "Old Hickory"
MG Leland S. Hobbs
117th, 119th, and 120th Infantry Regiments
113th, 118th, 197th, and 230th FA Battalions
105th Engineer Combat Battalion
743rd Tank Battalion
823rd TD Battalion
517th Parachute Infantry Regiment attached
110th, 431st and 448th AAA AW Battalions
75th Infantry Division
MG Fay B. Prickett
289th, 290th, and 291st Infantry Regiments
730th, 897th, 898th, and 899th FA Battalions
275th Engineer Combat Battalion
750th Tank Battalion
629th and 772nd TD Battalions
440th AAA AW Battalion
82nd Airborne Division "All American"
MG James M. Gavin
504th, 505th, 507th, and 508th Parachute Infantry Regiments
325th Glider Infantry Regiment
319th and 320th Glider FA Battalions
376th and 456th Parachute FA Battalions
307th Airborne Engineer Battalion
80th AAA AW Battalion
551st Parachute Infantry Battalion
740th Tank Battalion attached 30 December – 11 January
628th TD Battalion attached 2–11 January
643rd TD Battalion attached 4–5 January
106th Infantry Division "Golden Lions"
MG Alan W. Jones
422nd, 423rd, and 424th Infantry Regiments
589th, 590th, 591st, and 592nd FA Battalions
81st Engineer Combat Battalion
820th TD Battalion
634th AAA AW Battalion 8–18 December
440th AAA AW battalion 8 December – 4 January
563rd AAA AW battalion 9–18 December
101st Airborne Division "Screaming Eagles"
BG Anthony C. McAuliffe (MG Maxwell D. Taylor)
501st, 502nd, and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments
327th Glider Infantry Regiment
1st Battalion, 401st Glider Infantry
321st and 907th Glider FA Battalions
377th and 463rd Parachute FA Battalion
326th Parachute Engineer Battalion
705th TD Battalion
81st Airborne AAA AW Battalion

U.S. Third Army
LTG George S. Patton, Jr.

109th, 115th, 217th, and 777th AA Gun Battalions
456th, 465th, 550th, and 565th AAA AW Battalions

III Corps
MG John Millikin


6th Cavalry Group, Mechanized
179th, 274th, 776th, and 777th FA Battalions
193rd FA Group (177th, 253rd, 696th, 776th, and 949th FA Battalions)
203rd FA Group (278th, 742nd, 762nd FA Battalions)
183rd and 243rd Engineer Combat Battalions
1137th Engineer Combat Group (145th, 188th, and 249th Engineer Combat Battalions)
467th and 468th AAA AW Battalions
4th Armored Division
MG Hugh J. Gaffey
CCA, CCB, and CCR
10th, 51st, and 53rd Armored Infantry Battalions
8th, 35th, and 37th Tank Battalions
22nd, 66th, and 94th Armored FA Battalions
24th Armored Engineer Battalion
25th Cavalry Recon Squadron
489th AAA AW Battalion
704th TD Battalion
6th Armored Division "Super Sixth"
MG Robert W. Grow
CCA, CCB, and CCR
15th, 68th and 69th Tank Battalions
9th, 44th, and 50th Armored Infantry Battalions
128th, 212th, and 231st Armored FA Battalions
25th Armored Engineer Battalion
86th Cavalry Recon Squadron
691st TD Battalion
777th AAA AW Battalion
26th Infantry Division "Yankee"
MG Willard S. Paul
101st, 104th, and 328th Infantry Regiments
101st, 102nd, 180th, and 263rd FA Battalions
101st Engineer Combat Battalion
735th Tank Battalion
818th TD Battalion
390th AAA AW Battalion
35th Infantry Division "Santa Fe"
MG Paul W. Baade
134th, 137th, and 320th Infantry Regiments
127th, 161st, 216th, and 219th FA Battalions
60th Engineer Combat Battalion
654th TD Battalion
448th AAA AW Battalion
90th Infantry Division "Tough 'Ombres"
MG James A. Van Fleet
357th, 358th, and 359th Infantry Regiments
343rd, 344th, 345th, and 915th FA Battalions
315th Engineer Combat Battalion
773rd TD Battalion
774th TD Battalion attached 21 December – 6 January
537th AAA AW Battalion

VIII Corps
MG Troy H. Middleton


687th FA Battalion
174th FA Group (965th, 969th, and 700th FA Battalions)
333rd FA Group (333rd and 771st FA Battalions)
402nd FA Group (559th, 561st, and 740th FA Battalions)
422nd FA Group (81st and 174th FA Battalions)
178th and 249th Engineer Combat Battalions
1102nd Engineer Group (341st Engineer General Service Regiment)
1107th Engineer Combat Group (159th, 168th, and 202nd Engineer Combat Battalions)
1128th Engineer Combat Group (35th, 44th, and 202nd Engineer Combat Battalions)
French Light Infantry (six Light Infantry Battalions from Metz region)
467th, 635th, 778th AAA AW Battalions
9th Armored Division "Phantom"
MG John W. Leonard
CCA, CCB, and CCR
27th, 52nd, and 60th Armored Infantry Battalions
2nd, 14th, and 19th Tank Battalions
3rd, 16th, and 73rd Armored FA Battalions
9th Armored Engineer Battalion
89th Cavalry Squadron
811th TD Battalion
482nd AAA AW Battalion
11th Armored Division "Thunderbolt"
BG Charles S. Kilburn
CCA, CCB, and CCR
21st, 55th, and 63rd Armored Infantry Battalions
22nd, 41st, and 42nd Tank Battalions
490th, 491st, and 492nd Armored FA Battalions
56th Armored Engineer Battalion
602nd TD Battalion
41st Cavalry Squadron
575th AAA AW Battalion
17th Airborne Division "Golden Talons"
MG William M. Miley
507th and 513th Parachute Infantry Regiments
193rd and 194th Glider Infantry Regiments
680th and 681st Glider FA Battalions
466th Parachute FA Battalion
139th Airborne Engineer Battalion
155th Airborne AAA AW Battalion
28th Infantry Division "Keystone"
MG Norman D. Cota
109th, 110th, and 112th Infantry Regiments
107th, 108th, 109th, and 229th FA Battalions
103rd Engineer Combat Battalion
707th Tank Battalion
602nd TD Battalion
630th TD Battalion
447th AAA AW Battalion
87th Infantry Division "Golden Acorn"
BG Frank L. Culin, Jr.
345th, 346th, and 347th Infantry Regiments
334th, 335th, 336th, 912th FA Battalions
312th Engineer Combat Battalion
761st Tank Battalion
549th AAA AW Battalion
610th TD battalion 14–22 December
691st TD battalion 22–24 December and 8–26 January
704th TD battalion 17–19 December

XII Corps
MG Manton S. Eddy

2nd Cavalry Group, Mechanized
161st, 244th, 277th, 334th, 336th, and 736th FA Battalions
177th FA group 215th, 255th, and 775th FA Battalions
182nd FA group 802nd, 945th, and 974th FA Battalions
183rd FA group 695th and 776th FA Battalions
404th FA group 273rd, 512th, and 752nd FA Battalions
1303rd Engineer Service Regiment
4th Infantry Division "Ivy"
MG Raymond O. Barton
8th, 12th, and 22nd Infantry Regiments
20th, 29th, 42nd, and 44th FA Battalions
4th Engineer Combat Battalion
70th Tank Battalion
802nd and 803rd TD Battalions
377th AAA AW Battalions
5th Infantry Division "Red Diamond"
MG Stafford L. Irwin
2nd, 10th, and 11th Infantry Regiments
19th, 21st, 46th, and 50th FA Battalions
7th Engineer Combat Battalion
737th Tank Battalion
654th TD Battalion, 22–25 December
803rd TD Battalion, from 25 December
807th TD Battalion, 17–21 December
818th TD Battalion, 13 July – 20 December
449th AAA AW Battalion
10th Armored Division "Tiger"
MG William H.H. Morris, Jr.
CCA, CCB, and CCR
20th, 54th, and 61st Armored Infantry Battalions
3rd, 11th, and 21st Tank Battalions
419th, 420th, and 423rd Armored FA Battalions
609th TD Battalion
55th Armored Engineer Battalion
90th Cavalry Recon Squadron
796th AAA AW Battalion
20px 80th Infantry Division "Blue Ridge"
MG Horace L. McBride
317th, 318th, and 319th Infantry Regiments
313th, 314th, 315th, and 905th FA Battalions
305th Engineer Combat Battalion
702nd Tank Battalion
610th TD Battalion 23 November – 6 December and 21 December – 28 January
808th TD Battalion 25 September – 21 December
633rd AAA AW Battalion



Dernière édition par nancy 1477 le Jeu 24 Juin 2010 - 12:36, édité 3 fois

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Voici l'OdB des VolksArtillerie Corps allemand:

Type I VAKs :


One battalion of eighteen 7.5-cm antitank guns used in a field gun role
One battalion of eighteen 8.8-cm antitank guns used in a field gun role
One battalion of eighteen 10.5-cm howitzers
One battalion of twelve 122-mm howitzers
One battalion of twelve 15-cm howitzers
One battalion of six 21-cm guns and three 17-cm guns


Type II VAKs :


One battalion of eighteen 7.5-cm antitank guns used in a field gun role
One battalion of twelve 10-cm guns
One battalion of eighteen 10.5-cm howitzers
One battalion of twelve 122-mm howitzers
One battalion of twelve 152-mm howitzers

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Merci pour toutes ces infos.

Ca devrait suffire pour que mon pote puisse s'amuser à pondre des regles de gestion de l'arty dans sa campagne.

thumbs up

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cruchot a écrit:
Canons de 77mm : 18 par division
Les divisions d'infanterie peuvent avoir jusqu'à 36 170 en rab.


Ils ont ressortie l'artillerie de 14-18?
J'ai toujours lu que pour la 2e gm l'artillerie moyenne des div inf etait le 105.

nancy 1477 a écrit:Voici l'OdB des VolksArtillerie Corps allemand:

Type I VAKs :


One battalion of eighteen 7.5-cm antitank guns used in a field gun role
One battalion of eighteen 8.8-cm antitank guns used in a field gun role
One battalion of eighteen 10.5-cm howitzers
One battalion of twelve 122-mm howitzers
One battalion of twelve 15-cm howitzers
One battalion of six 21-cm guns and three 17-cm guns


Type II VAKs :


One battalion of eighteen 7.5-cm antitank guns used in a field gun role
One battalion of twelve 10-cm guns
One battalion of eighteen 10.5-cm howitzers
One battalion of twelve 122-mm howitzers
One battalion of twelve 152-mm howitzers

Les tubes de 122mm sont de la récupération sur les prises de guerres à l'est?

Ils ont fait le contrepoint in fine aux grosses div d'art sov et aux puissants appuis de ca anglosaxons.

Les 3 ou 4 brigades d'art us avaient au moins la puissance d'une division, etait-ce aussi efficace
que les regroupements soviétiques pour les percées.

On parle peu du renforcement en artillerie de l'allemagne en fin de guerre.
Au tant de vak auraient pu faire un contre-point à l'art sov, ce que pourtant les allemands
recherchaient depuis longtemps.

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